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Underage lesbians.
finmagik wrote in little_details
The setting is present day, New York urban fantasy. One of my main characters is a sixteen year old lesbian. This isn't a problem. But her new girlfriend is twenty seven. My main character told her new girlfriend two lies: A). That she lives with a roommate, not her father. B). That she's twenty.


There is a scene in the story in which the father finds them together and reveals that not is he her father not her roommate, but that she's sixteen. The new girlfriend storms out of the house angry because of the lies and scared because she was boffing a sixteen year old and could get arrested for statutory rape. I have to know in reality how important is age in lesbian relationships. Is 'age just a number' or is it more then that?

Errr...

It's impossible to answer this without knowing the jurisdictions you want information on. Is it set in a specific place, are you modeling it after common US or European laws, or what?

it says in the first line it's in New York, present day.

was the post edited? i don't see the edited line on here...

Posts don't show the "edited" line, only comments.

gotcha! i am glad i know this now!

Yes, it was. When all the "when" comments were posted, it merely said "modern day urban fantasy"; as the other poster said, posts don't show when they're edited.

Yes, it was edited. The edited line only appears on edited comments, not edited entries.

are u a lesibian?

(Anonymous)

2009-04-09 05:29 am (UTC)

hello my name is tyasia and i'm thirteen and i'm a lesbian i'll lik 2 meet you

Re: are u a lesibian?

(Anonymous)

2009-04-09 03:41 pm (UTC)

what are 12 and 13 yr old doing with older women

Knowing the country (and state, if applicable) would help a lot.

Where?

In Canada, the girl is at the age of consent. In other places, this will not be the case.

In the Uk there is no statutory age limit for lesbian sex because Queen Victoria refused to beleive that such a thing was possible when the possibility of a law about it was raised! Therefore there wouldn't be any legal fallout - as long as the younger was over 16. Under 16 and there is a possibility that child abuse laws could be brought into play if the family made a fuss about it or it was brought to the attention of Social Workers or the police.

It's a wonderful story, but sadly it's not true -- it wasn't Victoria's ignorance, but an oversight by Victorian lawmakers.

(Legal precedent in England dating back to Coke in the 1600s had it that "buggery" was male/male only -- whereas France defined it as any non-reproductive sex. When the law was extended to cover other acts through "gross indecency" laws, Victorians tended to see women as non-sexual, so laws regulating sex tended to focus on men.)

As for the OP, it depends entirely on the area as others have said -- legal in Canada, legal in half the US states and illegal in the other half.

I've known lesbian relationships with an age gap like that. I also recall a lesbian acquaintance around that age lamenting that the older women weren't interested in her because she was a "baby dyke."

Just a side note... I read an article about the subject for a course in Uni which presented as a fact that the law makers in the UK were worried that if women found out about the possibility (i.e. having sex together) (from reading about it in law text) they would all do it. So... it would be like publicly promoting it;) This might have been later, though.

Where is this taking place? Ages of consent vary depending on the country.

sixteen is a tricksome age. Depending on the location you're spining off from 16 could be a concent age, or 18.

Speaking from personal past experience as the underage person (I never directly lied but sometimes I didn't mention my age, and since I was in college people tended to assume I was at least 18), most people will freak out if they find out they've been so much as flirting with someone under 18, whether the minor is actually under legal age of consent or not.

In New York, the age of consent is 17, but even when I was 17, people still flipped out about it, especially if they were over 21.

16 to 27 is a lot more than just a number. It COULD be gotten over, but the lies wouldn't help. I do know a couple with an age split that's like 23 to 40something, but again, that's 23</i? to 40something -- usually, the younger one partner, the smaller the acceptable age difference. (Going by the vaunted XKCD model, it's automatically gross to date someone less than .5age + 7, so...) The people involved matter a lot as well. I hate dating within my own age range; I usually have nothing to say to other 19-year-olds and make friends best with people about ten years older than I am. But 16 is really, really young, and even a mature 16-year-old still has a lot of mental growth ahead of her. Dating a 27-year-old and lying about her age is probably going to be a relationship-ender. The lying will reveal her immaturity more than a number would. Also, statutory rape cases can be tough to push against lesbians. That might be because I'm from Texas, where we are perfectly tolerant of lesbians as long as they stay in the porn where they belong. Depending on the girl's dad, the older girlfriend might not have much to worry about, at least legally.

That might be because I'm from Texas, where we are perfectly tolerant of lesbians as long as they stay in the porn where they belong.

That is the best thing I have read all day. Seriously.

When I was age 17, I met a guy twice my age, and we're still married... (And I'm now older than he was when he met me.)

It can happen. The lying about the age is, of course, a hurdle. I never lied about my age. (I still am not sure I believe his, as he looked mid-to-late 20s when I met him, and to all his protestations that his driver's license is accurate, I tell him he must be part elf.)

And, so I'm not a total thread-jacker...
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm -- age of consent, worldwide and by US State, for male-female, male-male, and female-female. With footnotes!

Oh, and the way I got that was to Google on age of consent same sex. Easy search.

I lol'd at the part elf thing. ^_^

I'm not sure that chart is totally accurate, though...

As I understand it, the age of consent in Canada has recently been raised from 14 (for male and female) to 16 (for male and female). The age of consent for anal sex remains 18. The chart on that site indicates 16 and 18 for males and females. And the footnote for Canada says that these are the federal laws but provincial laws may vary, but that doesn't really make sense, because the Criminal Code in Canada is federal, and the provinces have no authority to make up their own crimes.

So, more detail than you needed on Canada, but if the chart is wrong about this country, it may be wrong about others. The chart is part of a website for an AIDS prevention charity, apparently, so maybe they're mis-stating the age of consent as a way to discourage sex with young people?

speaking from my own experiences, if the girl doesn't act like she's sixteen, it's often not as much of a "big deal" as it might be in a heterosexual relationship. girls can often be much more mature than their age would suggest. of course, it all depends on the individuals in the relationship.

Yeah, if we're going by just how the older partner feels about it and not the legal aspect....

It really depends. I do know in my curren area (rural Arizona) a large number of lesbian couples seem to have a high age division. (It's a lot of women in their 30s and 40s with women in their 20s.) But back when I lived in urban Washington, I didn't see as much of that and the lesbian couples I knew were all closer in age.

And personally I've dated women close to my age and women significantly older than me, with no issue. So outside of laws on age of consent, it's...really extremely dependent on the individual.

According to Wikipedia, FWIW, the age of consent in New York state is seventeen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#New_York

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(a)(1)-.htm#130.25
specifies that a person over 21 engaging in sexual intercourse with a person under 17 is guilty of 3rd degree rape.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(a)(1)-.htm#tny130_00 says that ""Sexual intercourse" has its ordinary meaning and occurs upon any penetration, however slight."

This seems a bit ambiguous--does "any penetration" include non-penile penetration?

It would be charged as "aggravated sexual abuse" or "criminal sexual act" depending on what was used. Rape, in NYS, applies only to PIV intercourse.

Unless (and pardon the crudeness of this phrasing) they were using aids like a dildo or strap on or something.

Those, in most places, tend to get charged as sodomy.

Penetration with fingers or objects is "aggravated sexual abuse" in NY. Oral or anal sex is "criminal sexual act" (used to be sodomy, but when the consensual sodomy law got taken off the books the word "sodomy" stopped being used at all). "Criminal sexual act" has degrees of seriousness that exactly parallel rape; the rules for "aggravated sexual abuse" run a bit differently because the seriousness depends, in part, on whether physical injury resulted from the penetration.

Of my friends who are lesbian (I live in Northampton, MA, which has billions of them), it's pretty much out of the question to date someone that many years your junior. You might find someone attractive at that age, but feel bad about it and not do anything.

If one of my friends was dating someone who was revealed to have been lying about her age and her living situation, my friend would flip out and probably end the relationship immediately, both for statutory-rape reasons and "OH GOD YOU ARE A LIAR WHAT ELSE ARE YOU LYING ABOUT" reasons. I have a friend who, at sixteen, dated a 28-year-old woman, but she admits that she was really screwed up at the time and wonders what motivated this woman to date someone so young. Obviously not all relationships with that age difference will be nuts, but I think the prevailing reaction would be OH SHIT NO.

Many of my lesbian friends are or have been in relationships with considerable age and/or maturity difference. In one there was only about a 4 1/2 year difference, but it was between a girl in her late teens and a girl in her early teens and the age thing caused a lot of worry. In another the younger is 21 and her girlfriend is in her late 30s (I believe they started dating when the younger girl was in her late teens) and age is of no concern to them at all.

Relationships involving minors can be stressful even when they are honest about their age, but age difference doesn't matter much if the younger person is legal and/or mature. The older girlfriend in your story would probably be more worried about the lying and legality of the girl's age rather than the age difference. In two years, when the younger girl is 18, the older would probably have a lot less concern (if the relationship makes it that far).

I see that a lot of the commenters here are talking about age differences between people in their 20s and 30s, which IMHO is very different than an age difference between a minor and a woman in her late 20s. I wouldn't bat an eye at a 30-year-old dating a 21-year-old, but even a 23-year-old dating a 17-year-old seems pretty, well, weird and creepy and kind of suspect. I'm under the impression that kind of thing happens a lot in the gay male community (I don't know, not being a gay male, but knowing a few gay males), but I don't encounter it as much in the lesbian community, possibly because we have a tendency to not take younger lesbians seriously (lol LUG).

While I'm not quite 27, I certainly don't have any interest in dating someone in high school, just because maturity-wise they tend to have a long, long way to go. They're cute and all, in a "Oh, I remember being that age!" sort of way, but not relationship material. Also I--again, not quite 27--would definitely dump anyone who'd been lying to me about her age and her living situation, because OMGWTF.

I don't know about anyone else in this community, but I can tell when someone is still in high school! Like, she'll more or less be finished growing, but she'll look, you know. Young! Possibly. . . too young.

How much the age difference matters to the people involved (leaving aside the legal aspects) really depends on the individuals. I know that I'm around the age of the older girl, and finding out that I'd been dating a sixteen-year-old would seriously creep me out. I wouldn't, and if I did by mistake because she'd been lying about her age, that would be the end of it. And just the thought of finding out I'd been sleeping with a sixteen-year-old profoundly gives me the creeps.

But I'm certainly not all lesbians everywhere. Work out how you think the specific character would react, because you get lesbians with all kinds of different attitudes.

Lesbian relationships, bearing a striking similarity to straight relationships, vary wildly depending on the people involved in them. For some, age will just be a number and for some it will matter a hell of a lot more. It depends on the people, not their preferences.

I'm 27 and a lesbian and can't even begin to IMAGINE dating someone who was 20. I can only tell you my opinion if you're talking about would that be realistic, which is... not so much.

That said, if you're talking about legality and statutory rape... it depends on how the state of New York defines sex (that is, whether oral sex can be considered subject to statutory rape laws). The age difference that seems to matter in NY is over 21 with under 17, so that does apply to them, but if New York doesn't define whatever behavior they engaged in as sex, it's moot. To figure that out, you may want to study the following: Go here and choose "PEN Penal" and then choose Article 130 - sex offenses. Article 130.00 is a definition of terms. Granted, your character probably wouldn't know those terms exactly, but it helps if you know them.

Also, be aware that unless the dad seems like he's going to press charges against the older woman, nothing would happen to her. Statutory rape is really only there as a safeguard and it's not like someone would get arrested for it unless the parent filed a complaint.

And just speaking from a personal POV, if I found out I was sleeping with a 16 year old, worrying about statutory rape would be the last thing on my mind--I'd be sick to my stomach. But again, I would never even date a 20 year old, so my opinion may not be worth much.

Completely leaving aside the legal issues... I'm one of those weird people who believes that calendar age is pretty much irrelevant in a relationship, that what matters is the personalities involved (though it's true that your era does shape your experience and thus your personality to a certain extent). But I'm well aware that is an unusual perspective, and most people seem uncomfortable with an age gap of 10+ years or so, especially when one partner is at the younger end of the spectrum. So I think your scenario sounds perfectly plausible; based on various experiences and observations, I don't see how it being a lesbian or straight relationship would affect that particularly, just the personalities involved.

My personal experience - when I was 15 (and frequently assumed to be older) I got into a relationship with someone in their 30s. Of course my mother was freaked out. But contrary to what people worried, said person was not coercing or taking advantage of me, I knew what I was doing, etc. Like I said, not typical, but possible. But I will freely acknowledge that most teenagers do not have the maturity level for this, and in my mom's shoes, I would probably be likewise freaked out.

I was in a similar situation to yours for most of my teens, however I was always upfront about my age and living situation. I've always considered lying about your age a deal-breaker. If someone likes you enough to look past your age and want to date you, you owe it to them to tell them exactly what that age is, especially while you're still in high school.

But that may just be my weird rule.

Oh, I absolutely agree--lying about any major thing* in a relationship is unacceptable. Hence I can fully believe that the OP's older character would be upset and freaked out.

(*as opposed to those useful placatory small lies like "no, that dress really doesn't make your butt look big")

is age "just a number" in a heterosexual relationship? or is it more than that?


It's just a number